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+--- Темы: Database infos (/thread-3275.html)
Database infos - psychotrix - 19.06.2009
Hi there.
My introduction:
I've been search mods and informations about Evil Islands: Curse of the Lost Soul since I've known about the balance mod.
I can't seem to find any links to good or custom mods anymore except a few things in Russian that do not work for me (I cannot read russian, and I have the UK version of the game - or is it US? :S )
I got a few from lotar's site, but most of them have no description or are in russian, so I have no clue to what they do.
I also have a few characters developed with Eraser's Mod and Arak's Mod (not sure if this is the right name).
Those are the only ones that seem really like the guy who made them was trying to make something serious
My analysis:
Since I am kind of a maths and stats freak, I started making and compiling datasheets about stuff in the game (enemies, materials, armors, weapons, etc). I figured that almost ALL stats in the game have mathematical formulas to it, and I pretty much figured aproximations to them, long before I even knew what balance mods were and that those database files were available.
One thing I see on the descriptions of the mods and modmakers seems that they have no clue as to all the math involved in the game. So they actually have a hard time making "balanced" stuff.
I was actually shocked to see on Eraser's mod the thing about the blueprints and materials bug, because that meant at the time that he had no clue about how the calculations applied on material x equipment... That detail pretty much removed all my interest on the mod...
On my research I pretty soon figured that all stuff related to the player and the player can use is divided to 20 levels. But enemy NPCs are divided to 32 levels (bosses included).
Each of these levels has its own durability value, its own price, its own mana, its own damage average, etc...
This kind of logic is quite simplistic to me, but I never saw anyone remotely referring to this logic...
(level 1 enemy = weakest gipath boars, toads, bats, level 29 enemy = strongest shadows in cave)
(level 1 player = stone dagger and some cloth blueprints, level 16 player = strongest meteorite khadigan armor and 1.4M gold weapons, level 20 player = all diamond stuff)
My motivation:
Since the resulting mathimatical progressions applied to all 32 enemy levels are a bit different from those applied to all 20 player levels, I started making a mod of my own based on the same logic: mathematical formulas I have also seen that many levels are not used in the game (there is no material or equipment on levels 17, 18 and 19)
So, I aim to make such mathimatical progressions that a level 20 player's stuff equals a level 28 human at least.
I aim to broad equipment a little more, so more stuff really gets to be used (means some weaker stuff will become even weaker, and stronger even stronger, but enemy armor will change accordingly
).EDIT:This also is for one player only in multiplayer quests, 'cause it's impossible for me to find anyone to play, and those that I find, there is a considerable danger of hacks/non legit, different mods, etc.
However I can't seem to find enough information for me to know what exactly am I mess with in the database.
There is a lot of unused stuff in the MP database and I intend to make use of all of them.
All of the tables have columns that are for those mathematical formulas and calculations. But many other columns I have no clue what they are for (example: completion column on MonsterPrototypes table).
My question:
Is there anyway I can get complete information about what each column is?
Thank you.
-psychotrix
Database infos - Крошка - 19.06.2009
All colunns are called with english names. I have had to translite all of them into Russian, but you needn't.
Levels in this game (EI) haven't any meanings, better work with parametrs in another columns.
Цитата:I got a few from lotar's site, but most of them have no description or are in russian, so I have no clue to what they do.
I also have a few characters developed with Eraser's Mod and Arak's Mod (not sure if this is the right name).
Those are the only ones that seem really like the guy who made them was trying to make something serious
You wrong. There are better mods, but most of tham are in Russian and made for "add-on", what is sets only on russian version of game.
:excl: There is many decribes of modmaking in Russian, so you can find dictinary and translite them.
Sorry for mitakes.
Database infos - psychotrix - 25.06.2009
Hi there.
Thank you for your reply.
Крошка,Friday, 19 June 2009, 15:09 Написал:All colunns are called with english names. I have had to translite all of them into Russian, but you needn't.Hmm I beg to differ, I would say that levels were important to make all pre-calculations to have an idea of how strong enemies and items should be...
Levels in this game (EI) haven't any meanings, better work with parametrs in another columns.
(what I mean is that they do not effect anything in the game, but they can and were used as auxiliary reference values)
Крошка,Friday, 19 June 2009, 15:09 Написал:Ah, yes that figures, game is Russian, so all better things should be in Russian!
You wrong. There are better mods, but most of tham are in Russian and made for "add-on", what is sets only on russian version of game.
But it is a pity for me then, because I think Russian version is incompatible with my Windows...
Крошка,Friday, 19 June 2009, 15:09 Написал::excl: There is many decribes of modmaking in Russian, so you can find dictinary and translite them.Hmm, you mean that column descriptions are available in Russian?
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What effect every single column has in the game? (for example, changing some texture type index and seeing what happens ingame)
:excl: My doubt also applies to all the spells that are on the database but are not available in the game (charm, stench, lichdom, comprehend, etc... I tried to use them, but they seem to do nothing!).
Can I find detailed descriptions in russian, about what all these things are for in the game? Or no one really knows? :unsure:
Database infos - Крошка - 26.06.2009
Цитата:Hmm I beg to differ, I would say that levels were important to make all pre-calculations to have an idea of how strong enemies and items should be...Here you right. Levels are used only for calculating parametrs.
Цитата:Ah, yes that figures, game is Russian, so all better things should be in Russian!Not becose SHOULD be in Russian, but becose they made by Russians or Russian-speaking people. You can made your oun mods and add-ons. And they will be mostly in English.
Цитата: My doubt also applies to all the spells that are on the database but are not available in the game (charm, stench, lichdom, comprehend, etc... I tried to use them, but they seem to do nothing!).Some of tham work. I used tham by myself. But they can make the game to work incorrect, so this magic need for editing.
Цитата:Can I find detailed descriptions in russian, about what all these things are for in the game? Or no one really knows?Heh, here we have a BIG problem. If there were many dicribtions of ALL databaseLmp, some people can use it wrong way. Some people use it now, but they mast spend many time for finding out such information, like you need. But if it were full discribtions, it will be much more such people and EI will be spoiled. So you must use this parted information.
An advice - find databasemaker and learn by practice. (Like me B))
:ph34r:
ЗЫ: (для россиянов) - хелп, я тут один справляюсь. И никто мне не поможет. Если кто знающий Английский читает это - отзовитесь и помогите!!!!!!!!!!!!
Database infos - ALtair - 26.06.2009
psyhotrix, there is no database description available on the net.
You're right talking about "levels" and "balance", there are indeed formulas behind all this database stuff. I can provide you with this internal formulas for you to be sure they are the right ones. Also I can give you a brief description of any database field used by the engine.
There is too much info for this one message, so I suggest you to ask the concrete questions, so I can answer them one by one.
Also, I will be glad to hear your proposals on modifying the database. And you didn't mention your target, what are you aiming for?
Database infos - psychotrix - 04.07.2009
Hi there.
Thank you for your replies
Крошка,Friday, 26 June 2009, 07:23 Написал:(...)Hmm I meant that since the majority of players is russian, most stuff (and better) will more likely be russian!
Not becose SHOULD be in Russian, but becose they made by Russians or Russian-speaking people. You can made your oun mods and add-ons. And they will be mostly in English.
Крошка,Friday, 26 June 2009, 07:23 Написал:Heh, here we have a BIG problem. If there were many dicribtions of ALL databaseLmp, some people can use it wrong way. Some people use it now, but they mast spend many time for finding out such information, like you need. But if it were full discribtions, it will be much more such people and EI will be spoiled. So you must use this parted information.Forgot about that problem...
An advice - find databasemaker and learn by practice. (Like me B))
But I don't understand them hackers... what's the fun and challenge in having all right from the start?
ALtair,Friday, 26 June 2009, 08:49 Написал:(...)Ah thank you very much!
You're right talking about "levels" and "balance", there are indeed formulas behind all this database stuff. I can provide you with this internal formulas for you to be sure they are the right ones. Also I can give you a brief description of any database field used by the engine.
There is too much info for this one message, so I suggest you to ask the concrete questions, so I can answer them one by one.
I've been a bit busy lately, but as soon as I have time, I will start pounding you with questions! xD
ALtair,Friday, 26 June 2009, 08:49 Написал:Also, I will be glad to hear your proposals on modifying the database. And you didn't mention your target, what are you aiming for?I gave in my first post a brief discription of my aiming.
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But I can elaborate
Most stuff will be for single play only, because I don't really find anyone to play, or those that I can find use different mods (and mostly russian).
So I have to make changes that allow a single player to be able to make the quests (normal game is impossible to make the dragon master quest with 1 player)
Basically I wish change the formulas that apply to all equipment and npcs so that diamond level equipment matches hardest cave enemies (normal diamond is equal to easiest cave enemies - level 20).
I also with to diverse things a bit more, so more equipment gets to be used and enemy stats have some sense to them.
Example: It never made any sense to me that a big black troll has exactly the same stats as a human guard on suslanger. Also it does not make sense that mage and melee guards have the same stats... a human melee player has more to attack/defense than a human mage player...
Also it does not make any sense to me: blueprints that use cheap material (cloth or leather) have a huge price (suslanger leather)... where the material is like a tiny fraction of the armor price.
I also intend to change weapon stats.
My logic would be: bigger weapons are harder to manage, so they will be less precise. The effect? Longer action, and higher damage variation. But more average damage.
In normal EI, daggers make 0.4 to 1.6 multiplier to average damage (damage varies a lot).
But in my logic, dagger is a small weapon, so it is easy to manage. Therefore it should be a precise weapon, and its damage should be more like 0.9 to 1.1 multiplier to average damage (same as normal bows and crossbows).
I hope this is understandable!
Database infos - ALtair - 04.07.2009
psychotrix,Суббота, 04 Июля 2009, 12:48 Написал:Ah thank you very much!Feel free to start this ^_^
I've been a bit busy lately, but as soon as I have time, I will start pounding you with questions! xD
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psychotrix,Суббота, 04 Июля 2009, 12:48 Написал:I gave in my first post a brief discription of my aiming.
But I can elaborate
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psychotrix,Суббота, 04 Июля 2009, 12:48 Написал:Basically I wish change the formulas that apply to all equipment and npcs so that diamond level equipment matches hardest cave enemies (normal diamond is equal to easiest cave enemies - level 20).This is understandable indeed, but this is not exactly what i've been asking about.
I also with to diverse things a bit more, so more equipment gets to be used and enemy stats have some sense to them.
Also it does not make any sense to me: blueprints that use cheap material (cloth or leather) have a huge price (suslanger leather)... where the material is like a tiny fraction of the armor price.
I also intend to change weapon stats.
My logic would be: bigger weapons are harder to manage, so they will be less precise. The effect? Longer action, and higher damage variation. But more average damage.
I hope this is understandable!
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You're talking about abstact actions without concrete proposals. I've been asking about the last ones. For example, you've said you "wish to change the formulas that apply to all equipment...". How exactly do you want to change them? You've said something about weapons later, but nothing about the armours, spells, perks, quick items, npcs.
Database infos - psychotrix - 05.07.2009
ALtair,Saturday, 04 July 2009, 18:05 Написал:(...)Ah, yes.
You're talking about abstact actions without concrete proposals. I've been asking about the last ones. For example, you've said you "wish to change the formulas that apply to all equipment...". How exactly do you want to change them? You've said something about weapons later, but nothing about the armours, spells, perks, quick items, npcs.
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Well, at this point it is still hard to say precise values because I am still experimenting.
But the method I use is the following:
I had excel tables on all stuff that is observable by the human player (npcs, weapons and armor blueprints, materials, wand blueprints, runes, spells, etc) made on my own before I even knew about the balance mod. The balance mod files (txt database) helped me refine, confirm and correct my own excel tables.
From those tables I can figure out aproximate formulas for how all stats for each level are calculated (durability, damage, armor for equipment and material, health, average damage, armor, etc for npcs... runes seem to be a bit different).
I then make a copy of those tables and apply my own formula to each level.
Then I simply match the levels on my own excel table to the levels on the EI database.
My formulas are only changing the overall damage and armor values for now (equipment and npcs), as I have to leave the rest intact to maintain proper balance.
The final concrete result can only be seen when I try it ingame, especially due to the material x equipment multiplier behavior.
Its hard for me to explain concrete stuff without putting here a bunch of mathematical calculations and explanations...
One thing I did is see at what levels materials and weapons exist (I haven't yet made the armors) on all levels and then try to reorganize them to fit levels in a nice evenly distributed fashion.
For an example on materials:
At level 20 only diamond exists... I leave it that way.
At levels 19, 18, 17, 15, 13 and 10, no materials exist.
At levels 16, 14, and 12, two materials exist (dragon hide and metal)
At levels 11, 9 and 7, three materials exist (troll hide, dragon bone and metal)
At level 8, only snow tiger skin exists.
At levels lower than 7, theres is always more than one material on each level (leather, bones, stone, fur and cloth)
All cloths are at level 1!
What I do is re-organize materials so that EACH level has AT LEAST one material and AT MOST three (this includes putting cloths at different levels).
I use same logic for weapon blue prints and will use same logic for armor blue prints.
The concrete example I remember to give, is right now, I put stone spear at level 1.
My values for level 1 are: average damage 60 (normal is 55), and armor value for material 1.2 (normal is 3.3). Since In previous posts I said big weapons are harder to handle and should be less precise, that would mean they would have higher damage variation.
So the final values for the stone spear will be:
Damage stuff:
--Average normal damage for blueprint is 60.
--Damage variation is 0.5 to 1.5 the average, and weapon damage multiplier is 1.2, so blueprint final damage will be 36 to 108.
--Stone material, which I put at level 2, but 1.4 damage value, the final damage for stone spear will be:
--- 36*0.14 to 108*0.14 = 5 to 15.
Price will be the same for level 1 normal weapon: 80. Material will be normal for level 2: 8 per stone.
As for an obsidian spear, i put the obsidian at level 8, costing 600 and having damage value of 2.9, the spear total damage will be 10 to 31.
But these values are temporary for now, I still have to make some trials.
Is this understandable?
EDIT: minor corrections
EDIT2 a diamond example:
Level 28 NPCs have damage 180 to 334 = 257 average damage.
So I put average damage for diamond weapon blueprints at 250.
Diamond material is at 10 damage/armor value.
Diamond dagger is a very small weapon, therefore it is precise and fast. Lower damage variation, but also lower damage average.
Calculations are as follows:
Level average damage for blueprint = 250.
Weapon damage variation = 0.9 to 1.1.
Weapon damage multiplier = 0.9.
Total damage on diamond dagger blueprint = 250 * 0.9 * 0.9 to 250 * 0.9 * 1.1 = 202 to 247.
Since the material is 10.0 damage, the multiplier for equipment will be 1.
So final diamond dagger will have damage 202 to 247.
This seems fair to me against npcs whose damage goes from 180 to 334 and armor 95.
But I will have to change this exact logic if I change NPC stats at these levels.